Do you identify as a perfectionist? And then try to apply the principles of perfection to food by desiring to hold onto food rules or a structure pretty tightly? When you step out of that structure does your brain make you think you are a failure? We are here this week to rescue you from this thought error that 1) perfectionism is not real and 2) how that relates to eating and your body.

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You are listening to Wait a minute, with Beth and Jessica, episode 37.

Hi, I'm Jessica Pearson, certified life coach. And I'm Beth Barnett Beal and integrative nutrition therapist. Hello. Hello. Okay, I wanted to talk about perfectionism. Today. Okay. Okay. Because this is a theme that honestly, it just keeps haunting, so many of my clients, okay? I have a lot of really high achieving clients who are used to being the best at what they do, right?

Mm-hmm. like they, you know, are lawyers and you know, people in really amazing. Powerful positions in their careers and they're used to getting street a's their whole life. Mm-hmm. . So naturally they try to apply the principles of perfection to food. Okay. And that looks like, you know, they desire holding onto food rules or structure pretty tightly.

And yet when they step out of that structure, their brain makes it mean that that is some huge failure. And when they believe that, like one, that they fail, and two, that failure is a terrible thing. They end up making it worse for themselves by holding on to that guilt and shame, which usually looks like, you know, giving up or eating all the things because the next mindset is, well, I messed up so I might as well throw it all away.

Does that sound familiar to you? Yeah, , I, I see it a lot in my clients as well, and I'm also. I was thinking about that scenario that you wrote and you know, then it's like, okay. I'm also wondering if some people do not totally recognize it as perfectionist behaviors, but that they can recognize it as all or nothing.

Thinking, and so that concept of each meal or eating event is its own thing, and one doesn't necessarily determine the other that doesn't compute for them because it's like, yeah, it's all or nothing, which is like, if I'm not perfect, then I'm not gonna do it at all. Yeah. I don't know that many people walk around being like, I'm a perfectionist.

Like it's not necessarily a label that you wanna try on. I don't know. Some people really hold it as a bad. That's true. A honor. That's true. I guess. Yeah. Well, have you ever, have you ever identified as a perfectionist? Yeah. And also a perfectly failed one at that . It's definitely, you know, something that I had thought that you have to do everything really well.

It's that whole concept of like you. I have to, you know, do things like well and blah, blah, blah. There wasn't, I feel like a lot of talk about like, do your best, you know, and if you fail, it's a problem. Like that just like wasn't like a mainstay of conversation as of a kid of the eighties and early nineties, you know?

Oh wow. And so there are still components of my life that I think I still very much get sucked into. Thinking like a perfectionist mindset, but of course it creates a lot of stress for me. And then it's not until I feel that stress and I see, oh, okay, , what's going on? Yeah. What about you? Oh yeah. Well, for the longest time as someone who never really made great grades, like school was just not my jam.

That's where my perfectionist started, was there. Oh, interesting. Mm-hmm. . Well, like you, I feel like I'm an eighties kid. My parents, I mean, they were not high pressure parents. They were just like, You're fine. . I don't remember them being really particularly upset with me about not getting straight A's, you know.

Mm-hmm. , but I was diagnosed with a d D in fifth grade, got put on whatever version of Adderall was available back in like 89 . Mm-hmm. . And I did get straight A's after getting on meds, which is really interesting. But I never would have thought I had perfectionist tendencies really until starting our. Back in like 2014, I think I had more opportunities to realize.

Some of these, you know, behaviors were like, oh, it's because I have this like fear of like, what if it doesn't work out? What will people think? You know, procrastination, I always thought like, oh, I'm just lazy. But it's actually a form of perfectionism because you don't wanna start until you have the perfect idea and then you can spend months honing in on that perfection.

Like you could spend months like thinking of a logo or a name for a program and just use that as an. to Hal your progress, right? Which is a form of perfectionism. And then, you know, we do new things all the time. There's also fear of like what other people will think, you know? Mm-hmm. . If I start a podcast and other people don't like it, then I'm not perfect and that won't feel good, so maybe I just shouldn't do it.

Right. But then we just do it. But like we, I feel like in the years we've been able to kind of overcome these, these things, but it's like I just always thought perfectionism looked like being the best all the time. Mm-hmm. , but it can also look like hiding or holding back or not showing up at all. And it's just trying to avoid failure by failing ahead of time, which is like classic perfectionism for some of us.

Yeah, I can definitely. Relate to a lot of that, especially the procrastination. So not starting until you feel like it's, you know, perfect is very much alive and well. And I wonder if I was thinking, I was like, I wonder if that's my resistance to creating social media . Cause I'm always like, what do I don't know?

So I don't do anything at all. And I'm like, ah, Jessica's got it. And then my personal account is like basically, Dead fish at the moment. It's like there's nothing going on there. Cause I'm like, huh, I don't really have anything interesting to share. Oh, that's an interesting thought for sure. . But also you might just not be a social media person and like, that's okay.

Who knows? Yeah. I think sometimes it is hard to know. It's like, well, like why am I doing it or not doing it and do it like, yeah, my personal is probably like, I don't really care that much, but for work I'm always stressed about like, If I don't get it just right, then it will do nothing. And then it will just be like this dead algorithm page that's making it worse for our page to grow

But anyways, we digress. My son is also super perfectionist and I swear I didn't teach it to him cuz he's been like this since he was learning to walk. Like he's not one of those kids that got up 700 times, you know, and fell on his ass before he, you know, started walking. It was like he kind of would cruise and then one day he just started walking cuz it almost was like he wasn't gonna do it until he like had it down and he's still that way.

Like, he won't start anything unless he thinks it's gonna be perfect. And if it's not, oh my gosh. Walk out. Like hold, like, you gotta find shelter because it's quite the, uh, big, big feelings. Big feelings. . Well, we're gonna dive more deeply into perfectionism and I guess I just wanna offer to people like, y'all, perfectionism isn't real.

It's fake, it doesn't exist. We all drop the ball. Like there's, you know, and nobody can hold everything together 10 out of 10 a hundred percent of the time because we are human and not robots, and thank goodness we are not robots. Yeah. I dropped the ball twice in the last 16 hours and I was asleep for about seven of them.

So . But wait, seven outta two. Oh, you mean the hours? Yeah. In the last 16 hours I made two. Fairly, you know, big mistakes. And seven of those 16 hours I was asleep. So , they came in pretty rapid succession there. One upon going to sleep. And then as then when I got up this morning, . Amazing. Well that was the irony is like I was pulling up this podcast to write our notes on perfectionism and failure.

Mm-hmm. And then, mm-hmm. I was like, wait, I don't see our podcast that's supposed to go live tomorrow in the queue. And so I texted you and I was like, uhoh. And then it was so interesting cuz like I felt that stomach dropped feeling of like, oh, I missed the target. And then I was like, wait, was it. Was I supposed to do it or you know, I was like, what's happening?

And then I was like, it doesn't matter. Like we're just gonna sort this out. Like I go through the process so quickly now, and then it's also like a part of me feels very freaked out and concerned, but then I'm able to say, oh, it's just a podcast. Like if we launch it late, it's not the end of the world, right?

No one's gonna die. Not no one's life is in danger. , no. And I don't have to make it mean terrible things about myself because it wasn't done the way that we normally do. Right. It's like fine, you know? So yes, we all drop the ball. Okay. So you are reading Brene Brown's Queen, you know? Mm-hmm. Atlas of the Heart right now, which I think I have on audio, but I know that her books are so much better.

Like when it's tangible. Yeah. This one's like really pretty. It's got like pictures and yeah, it's definitely not quite the same and it's definitely not a back to front reader. You can definitely skip. From section to section, it's really great. Perfect for my brain. Yes. So she has a section in there on perfectionism and I was like, oh, this is perfect.

So she states in her book, as we said, Atlas of the Heart. Perfectionism is not striving to be our best or working towards excellence. Healthy's driving is internally driven and perfectionism is externally driven by a simple but potentially all consuming question. What will people think? So juicy. It's so true.

It's so true. Yeah. And so then she says, most perfectionists were raised being praised for achievement and performance. Good grades, good looks. There are sports rule following people pleasing. And somewhere along the way we adopt this debilitating belief system. I am what I accomplished and how well I accomplish it.

And what they found in research is that perfectionism hampers success. Yeah, and I think we know that, from what I was talking about, it hampers your success because you're like so afraid of that external value and mm-hmm. because you tie that external, you know, need to your internal self-worth, it's terrifying.

Mm-hmm. . To do something and so you're like, I'm just not gonna do it. So then you're like, I just won't be successful. , it's too, too scary. Yeah. So you don't even like begin. It is like a such a interesting concept or like people will do it thinking that they're doing it perfect and then they get a feedback that it wasn't perfect and then that is.

Or shattering. Yeah. As well. And then I can set them up for like not doing the same in the future so that they will then start holding back on it instead of, you know, being like, oh, okay. And realizing it is from it is because we've been. Taught for so long that we have to do it this way and be really good at it.

Everything. Yeah. And it's like, wait, well how can we be good at something if we don't mess up and learn along the way? Mm-hmm. . Well, I'm also glad what or what she said about rule following and people pleasing. Cause I think that really shows up for people in their relationship with food. This is like, I think the rule following is why people like, Cuz it's like just, you know, people come, they're like, just tell me what to do.

Just gimme a set of rules and I can follow them. I'm, I'm the person that can follow their rules, you know? And it's like, ugh, what if there are no rules? Like, that feels really scary for a lot of people to be like, wait, you're not gonna give me like a black and white. Set of what to eat, what not to eat, how and when.

Yeah. I'm like, wow. And that's like, what? How am I supposed to be perfect if there's no , no guide to perfection? And then like, people pleasing comes up a lot in that emotional realm with food, right? It's like mm-hmm. boundaries with food or, you know, having to make decisions based around food because you're worried about what other people are gonna think.

Right. Yeah, that, that is an interesting concept cuz I think about, well, people that are on a journey that have these health goals, right? They are like, okay, this is how I want to eat. And then things like that. And they're like, well, but when I go to this person's house, I can't eat like that because it will offend them that I'm not eating their food.

And so then they just feel very conflicted by all of it because they wanna be perfect. In their way of showing up for themselves, but then they also wanna show up perfect that they are accommodating and willing to do whatever this other person thinks of them. And that would, that's a total mind fart,

It's just so conflicting. You're like, who am I? Yeah. Pleasing. Yeah. Oh man. Okay, so then we'll just kind of end it at the end of her perfectionism section in the book that I felt like was pretty spot on. So feeling shamed, judged and blame, and the fear of those feelings are realities of the human experience.

Perfectionism actually, Increases the odds that will experience these painful emotion and often leads to self-blaming. It's my fault I'm feeling this way because I'm not good enough. That feels like heavy in my body when you say that. so true. . Yeah. So let's all collectively decide we are no longer going to try to be perfectionists anymore.

Well, you read part of it too earlier to me cuz we were kind of going over what you wanna talk about, but there was also the word mastery in there, which was like looking at something as. You know, mastery versus perfectionism and I think there was a maybe definition of mastery. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't wanna That's ok.

Include that. I thought it was so good. Yes. So they said in their research, they. Learned that achieving mastery requires curiosity and viewing mistakes in failures as opportunities for learning. Perfectionism kills curiosity by telling us that we have to know everything or we risk looking less than. Yes.

I love that so much. Yeah. Mastery requires curiosity in viewing mistakes and failures as opportunities for learning. And that's, you know, what we tell people all the time and they're learning how to eat for them. Journey is, is like you're totally gonna fail and it's gonna be okay because. We have to see where it comes up and how we're gonna learn from it instead of just thinking you're gonna adopt this quote unquote new meal plan and live like that forever.

Cuz that's not at all feasible or possible. I just love this so much because it kind of covers failure without talking so much

It's like, yes, let's, like, when we're not hitting the mark of like what we thought we were gonna do, we can either make that mean. I'm gonna be curious about why it went down this way, and maybe I will learn something from it. Versus saying like, oh, well I just, this is another thing I knew I was gonna fail at.

I, I can't succeed, so I might as well just, you know, quit. But I'm like, no. In most cases, we can learn and we can pivot and we can keep going. And like when we have commitment to ourselves, that gets us through that process of mastery and learning. Mm-hmm. versus being perfect and you're like, oops, I failed.

I guess I can't do this. I'm. Right. Just giving up altogether. Yeah. So I don't know. I just really feel like you can't fail with food. Like it's not like we're doing brain surgery and if you mess that up, the person's gonna die. Right. I mean, I can only think of like a random thing. It's like you've alactic to peanuts.

Right. But other than that, like that's pretty much, right. It's like other than that, you know, like that's pretty much it. And that's not even the same thing per se. It is In some cases, you know, if you're a restaurant and you tell people that, you know, there's something, you know, but yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah, yeah.

There are some extreme cases. Yes. So when we take those extremes,

oh, Monday brain, you know, when we take those extremes out, we really look at it. It is. It's just. Food and it's just a meal or just a snack or just one event. Yeah. And so when we can look at it from a place of curiosity, we can ask ourselves like, well, okay, maybe I don't feel good after eating that, or I'm having an emotional response after I'm eating that.

Mm-hmm. , how can I be curious with that? Like how can it be data? , you know, and just reviewing this experience as data and then I can apply whatever data I learned to the next experience. Wow. Right. Which is how it gets you out of that diet thinking. Yes. Which diet thinking is the all or nothing, you know, all or nothing to look perfect, which is not possible either.

This is the, the whole being nice to ourselves thing, right? Mm-hmm. . So when we're failing, we're just saying terrible things to ourselves and cuz it's like there's that physical feeling of failure that doesn't feel good. Mm-hmm. And that comes along with all of the thoughts that are terrible about ourselves.

And it's easy to dwell in that and to take action from there versus like, Ooh, how can I sit with this feeling of discomfort? And then how do I give myself grace to move through it and move forward without having to throw it all away? Yeah. You know, when we were kind of thinking about this is that I want people to give themselves lots of grace in the ups and downs in the arena of food.

Because if you really think about it, there are way too many variables that can quote unquote derail. You know what seems like a perfect plan. And so, you know, I think that it's so easy for people to not eat in the way that they think they should for their goals. If your schedule gets off and you find yourself out needing food, it's very hard to find the things that you.

Want to eat or think you should eat, like the health supportive foods, like it is difficult out there. And then another thing that, that we don't really give ourselves grace for is that we are just too overloaded with the number of things that we have to think and consider and do in a day. So, We are short circuiting and oftentimes we short circuit around food because it is a base need that we have, and so we go.

To what we are primed to do, which is to find food in the fastest, most efficient way possible. And so it's like, okay, if we can just go with the grace of what life is that it's gonna be okay. Not all the meals are gonna be perfect and they aren't anyway. And like we just take data points and we learn.

Also is, it's a, it is like sometimes you're just in survival mode. You're just doing the best that you can and if you mm-hmm. , if you find yourself in survival mode for one meal or three years, it's like you're just doing the best that you can. Mm-hmm. . And it is those little things that you can incorporate small, you know, versus being like, uh oh, I have to do a full 180 and I have to be perfect at this new life.

Like, that's just, that's asking so much. And also when you were talking about schedules, it's like, yeah, it is busy just for someone with healthy boundaries, it's still very busy. Mm-hmm. . But when we go back to that idea of people pleasing and perfectionism mm-hmm. , a lot of times I feel like people are overscheduled and doing things they don't even wanna do.

Right. Because yeah, it goes back to that level of perfectionism. So it is a lot to unpack. It's a lot to unpack. Yeah. So yeah, we're just, Hey, we're not perfect. Did you know that I'm not perfect? Uh, I did. Yeah. , I feel like it's very freeing to know that, you know, and it's like, oh yeah, I'm, I'm imperfect, and that's totally fine.

Yes, it's fine. There are many days that it's fine and there are some days it doesn't feel fine, and that's okay. Of course, these are still. Feelings that I get to have. That's the human experience, right, is like we don't feel good all the time, right? And we don't have to use food to fix it. In Atomic Habits, James Clear says that the pain of failure correlates with the height of expectation.

Failing to attain something you want hurts more than failing to attain something that you didn't think much about in the first place. So, In other words, when we believe we weren't perfect enough in our eating plan for the day or week, then the failure is perceived as more painful because many people do have such a strong desire to attain that perfect image of themselves.

And so then if we. Couple this with our perfectionist ways. Many people's weight loss efforts are driven by external factors of looking like a particular social norm. So the failure is even more painful because it's got shamed all wrapped up in there. Hmm. Yeah. That's so good. Let's just leave it there.

Okay. Sounds good.

So it's time for our weekly segment of where. We keep our eyes peeled out for things in the media or in real life that come from diet culture or that perpetuate diet culture in some way. These are often the subtle ways it creeps in, which is why we are shining a light on it and sharing it with you.

Jessica. We actually had a few this week, but I started with the first one that we talked about. Yeah. Cuz we, we were really on a roll back and forth with all of the things we found this week. Okay. So I bought a small bag of candy at. . Mm-hmm. . They're the smart suites because my curiosity got the best of me.

Like it is cute packaging. It's bright colors. It is. I've seen people on Instagram endorsing it, celebrities. They're like, just do it. I've not seen that. I've just seen them at Target. Okay. What'd you get? Yeah, what'd you purchase? I realized that after you told me what you got, that I had just purchased these lollipops for kids, you know, my daughter's birthday party for the little bitty bags that she wanted to make.

And then I was like, oh. Didn't read the ingredients. I just saw on the label, only one gram of sugar. And I was like, well those might taste terrible. Who knows? Throw it in the back. We got, we gotta keep moving here. . So what's great marketing? It's great marketing. Yeah. So it's like three, this one was like three grams of sugar and there are only two options.

There's either PEOs or Swedish Fish. And I love, okay, A p g I hate a Swedish fish. So, But here's the thing is the texture of the P G O was that of a Swedish fish, which was chewing and stuck to my teeth. Hmm. So that was not, I mean, just that alone was enough for me to say, like, that's probably not the best option for me.

Just everything else aside. Not that I, I mean, you know, I don't really eat candy all that often, but, okay, so then I looked at the nutrition and the ingredients because I was like three grams of sugar that always gives me paws. I'm like, so what is it? ? Okay, so the ingredients, it was like, it's rice flour and potato starch based, which kind of explains the texture to me.

I feel like rice can, and potato can be kind of like stickier. , but it also had Stevia, which I am not the biggest fan of. Yeah, it was, it must have been a very small amount because it wasn't so bad, but it definitely left that aftertaste that I really don't like. And then what I forgot to mention to you in our first conversation about it, I didn't really read disclaimer, but it talks about allulose.

Do you know what Aus is? I've heard of it. I looked it up, and that information is no longer with me. Can you refresh ? Yes, I can. There's actually like an amazing disclaimer on the package because I, I totally missed the disclaimer. I don't know how. I guess I was just too busy stuffing PGOs in my mouth to pay a temperature.

you were trying to get them stuck outta your teeth to pay attention to them? Yeah. Here's the disclaimer. Allulose is a non artificial sweetener that is found in foods like raisins and figs. It tastes like sugar, but it doesn't act like sugar in your body. . This hashtag Kick sugar candy has 11 grams of allulose per bag.

Since Allulose isn't absorbed by the body, you can subtract it along with the fiber to find only 18 grams of nut carbs. So, The reason why it is interesting, I didn't notice it because I was so busy looking at the actual nutrition facts because it said, oh yeah, only three grams of sugar, but it had 42 total carbohydrates.

Hmm. So I was like 42. That's a bagel. Exactly. I was like, I don't understand this. I didn't know that. You know, with diet math, we can subtract fiber. Mm-hmm. Hmm. , so you. It's kind of, you know, taking it down a little bit, but I didn't know that you were also allowed to subtract the allulose. So that's what I learned after I got, it's like, and the keto foods, when you subtract the sugar alcohol Yes.

And then you get to count just the net carbs. Yeah. That's is I, that's why I don't like, part of the reason why I hate keto is all the diet math. It's like, oh, but we can do diet math and subtract and subtract and then therefore it doesn't count. But I'm like, I don't know, is this true? Like, how do we know this?

Unless I have like a blood glucose monitor and I actually know that my body is not right processing this, I don't know. So I just, I don't love a diet math. No. And I, I happened to be at a gas station recently and I saw regular PTOs and I was like, huh, I wonder what the carbohydrate load is, you know?

Mm-hmm. and the serving size is only three gummies of the real ones. Mm-hmm. , how many were in the. Smart suites. Oh, you get a whole bag. So it's about how many is in the whole bag? Do you know? I would say like 15. Oh, okay. I don't know. I mean it's, it's like enough where you would be like, oh, I, I can just pound these.

Like, it felt substantial in quantity. Mm-hmm. . Right. Okay. Like I didn't finish 'em cause I was annoyed by them sticking to my teeth. But, so anyway, in the real bag it was 23 grams for three gummies. Mm-hmm. . So then I was like, well, Me personally because I don't need that sensation of going back for more and more and more.

Like I personally would just rather have three or four of the real deal and then like go about my life or just, yeah, choose neither. I'm like, I'm kind of a more of a chocolate person anyway. . So I would maybe do like, you know, peanut M and MSS or something, but just, yeah, cuz rice flour and potato starch are, Really know better for you than is sugar.

Yeah. Because the first ingredient is soluble corn fiber, which like, you know, that's a very highly processed corn product. Mm-hmm. , you know, and then there's just all this other like weird fibery stuff and I don't know, it's just, it's not, to me, I don't know that it's any better than the corn syrup in a regular candy.

So, you know, I don't think one is necessarily better or worse than the other. I don't know. Yeah, neither sounds ideal, but I think I'd rather, yeah. What would I choose? ? I don't know. Yeah. If I were like, here's, here's PIOs and here's this. I think I'd choose something that had less ingredients overall. I mean, I don't love, I know what.

Corn fructose as to you. Like, that's, that's really, really hard on our body. But still if I, you know, at that point I'm eating candy, so what does it matter? I think, you know, I would probably eat the real thing because I don't like to support products that do things that, that make, and to me that is like, you know, I would be supporting a product that is making people do diet, math and continue the whole.

Diet, this is better because you get to do diet math, and so you get to feel like you're eating more, but you're really not. It's not better. Yeah, it's, and again, we always say like there are no good or bad foods. It's like what is the dose that feels good in your body? And so there might be reasons why you would choose one or the other, but Correct.

For me, I personally, I always prefer the real deal in more moderation than being like, here's a whole bag of something that tastes bad cuz it's for you, you.

So I don't know if you like them, great. But yeah, like it wasn't, it wasn't gonna give me the satisfaction that I was wanting from a gum you're aiming for. So Yeah, I don't, I don't see the point in it. So anyway, that's what I had this week. Tell me, my algorithms are so crazy, I can't wait. Talk next week about, I know you gotta write things.

I don't forget. Oh, I take screenshots. I am on madness of both hardcore diets and perimenopause menopause weight loss ads. Oh, it's.

I bet it's like a whole other diet culture in Perry. It's a new wave of diet culture to women that typically have more disposable income than the other, you know, diety. Well, and it's also targeting like, Hey, we know this phase of life that you're in, and like everybody knows how hard it is and it's like they're really using that vulnerability to get.

and try to do it, but it's not coming from a actual place of helpfulness or giving you a true answer. These women are also getting smart sweet ads to them too, . Cause you could do diet math and there's fiber. Vibrant helps with, you know, that menopausal belly gain, weight gain. According to all the ads, we, we have to end it here.

Yeah, it's gonna get ugly. We're all fast.

Okay. I sure hope we gave you something new to think about today and helped you take one more step on your path to freeing yourself from day culture. Please be sure to subscribe to this podcast. And follow us on Instagram at Path underscore nutrition. If you're looking to work with us, please visit our website@pathnutrition.com to get started.

Hi. Hi. Bye everyone.